1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:07,000 free to examine, to question, to disagree. The subject of today's discussion are flying 2 00:00:08,520 --> 00:00:14,520 saucers only science fiction. The moderator of The Open Mind is Eric S. Goldman, Professor 3 00:00:14,520 --> 00:00:20,520 of History at Princeton University and author of Rundigul with Destinate and A Crucial Decade. 4 00:00:20,520 --> 00:00:24,520 To introduce the topic and guests for this week here is Mr. Goldman. 5 00:00:24,520 --> 00:00:30,520 Hello ladies and gentlemen. We live of course in the space age and since 1947 at least 6 00:00:30,520 --> 00:00:36,520 that space age has been characterized by thousands of reports of unidentified objects in the 7 00:00:36,520 --> 00:00:43,520 air, flying saucers as they are properly called or UFOs unidentified flying objects as they 8 00:00:43,520 --> 00:00:48,520 are known in more scientific circles. The responsibility for investigating these reports 9 00:00:48,520 --> 00:00:54,520 rests with a branch of the air force located in Ohio and this official agency states that 10 00:00:54,520 --> 00:01:00,520 there is no persuasive evidence that genuine flying objects from another planet exist. 11 00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:07,520 But the popular belief in them in some quarters goes on and perhaps not. Very recently a good 12 00:01:07,520 --> 00:01:13,520 many people around Exeter New Hampshire became very sure that something quite genuine was 13 00:01:13,520 --> 00:01:18,520 being made in their era. The Open Mind is open minded about this subject too and I had 14 00:01:18,520 --> 00:01:24,520 no to discuss it here to my far left, Mr. R. Leo Scrinkel, Assistant Professor of Psychology 15 00:01:24,520 --> 00:01:30,520 at the University of Wyoming. Here to my immediate left, Mr. John G. Fuller, author, journalist 16 00:01:30,520 --> 00:01:36,520 and columnist for the Society Review, who has been engaged in extensive research into 17 00:01:36,520 --> 00:01:42,520 that alleged flying saucer episode in Exeter New Hampshire. Here to my immediate right is 18 00:01:42,520 --> 00:01:50,520 D. H. Menzel, Director of Harvard College Observatory. Next Professor Menzel, Frank B. Salisbury, 19 00:01:50,520 --> 00:01:55,520 Professor of Science Physiology at Colorado State University. Much of whose research concerns 20 00:01:55,520 --> 00:02:01,520 popular life on Mars. And to my far right is J. A. Heineck, Chairman of the Astronomy 21 00:02:01,520 --> 00:02:06,520 Department and Director of the Linnheimer Astronomical Research Center at Northwestern 22 00:02:06,520 --> 00:02:14,520 University. Mr. Menzel, Mr. Fuller has written about this particular Exeter New Hampshire 23 00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:21,520 episode in the current Look Magazine and he concludes his account after having told what 24 00:02:21,520 --> 00:02:26,520 the other person has said by saying, the most potential comment made to me by Coast Guard 25 00:02:26,520 --> 00:02:33,520 and Military in the area supports the Linnman's testimony and confirming reports even of radar 26 00:02:33,520 --> 00:02:38,520 readings and a scramble made by jet fighters. Collusion, folks, or mistaken identity by 27 00:02:38,520 --> 00:02:44,520 so many people seem improbable. The continued official silence surrounding the subject of 28 00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:51,520 UFOs seems as mysterious as the Exeter story itself. I haven't noticed on any particular 29 00:02:51,520 --> 00:02:58,520 silence about the subject, the Exeter sightings seem pretty much run-of-the-mill to me and 30 00:02:58,520 --> 00:03:07,520 as I've looked over the reports, both the official reports and the unofficial ones that you're referring to, 31 00:03:07,520 --> 00:03:18,520 I've found that the pattern is very similar to those in the many thousands of cases that I have examined in the 32 00:03:18,520 --> 00:03:24,520 airport files. And you've stayed in your both the world of flying saucers, you've stayed flatly. Now that was up to 33 00:03:24,520 --> 00:03:31,520 1963 when you published that report. No fact so far determined suggests that a single unidentified flying 34 00:03:31,520 --> 00:03:37,520 object has originated outside our own planet and that is your opinion as of 66 still. That is correct. 35 00:03:37,520 --> 00:03:45,520 I was going to ask a mental question. I went up to Exeter for 24 days. I interviewed 60 people. 36 00:03:45,520 --> 00:03:52,520 I tape recorded 70 hours of tape. I cross-examined these people. I did not just interview them. 37 00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:56,520 I threw questions at them that would try to throw them off. I tried to disprove this. 38 00:03:56,520 --> 00:04:00,520 Now were you up there in Exeter, Dr. Mellow, to investigate this? No, I was not. 39 00:04:00,520 --> 00:04:07,520 Well, why weren't you up there if you're so interested in it? Because I don't have time to investigate every one of the 40 00:04:07,520 --> 00:04:14,520 cases and I can ask you the same question about many of the other cases. You might seem to have concentrated on this 41 00:04:14,520 --> 00:04:22,520 Exeter case. I never had any experience with UFOs before, but I did go up there with an open mind to try to examine 42 00:04:22,520 --> 00:04:30,520 if necessary if I could disprove it. I would have been glad to. But this was such a startling case and that the police officers 43 00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:38,520 who were involved with this cited it at the low pre-top level and watched it for eight or nine minutes 44 00:04:38,520 --> 00:04:46,520 while two of them checked each other out and three other civilians reported the same phenomenon within the hour 45 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:55,520 and within a distance of say six miles. I believe you said that the object was seen at a distance of 100 feet. 46 00:04:55,520 --> 00:05:03,520 The initial sighting was below pre-top level. Now the trees were estimated to be at 70 feet. 47 00:05:03,520 --> 00:05:11,520 It came up behind those trees and then moved toward them and hovered 100 feet in the air. You're right, 100 feet in that case. 48 00:05:11,520 --> 00:05:18,520 Did any of you other gentlemen read Mr. Fuller's piece or do you know about the answer? Yes. I read it today. Yes. 49 00:05:18,520 --> 00:05:28,520 Would you comment on it? I was very impressed. It would seem to me that this would be the kind of a sighting that ought to be thoroughly 50 00:05:28,520 --> 00:05:36,520 investigated because I'd like to hear a documental's ideas about how it's run in the mill. It seemed to me that it was not run in the mill. 51 00:05:36,520 --> 00:05:44,520 There was enough detail involved but it's pretty hard to imagine all the planet Venus or weather balloon or something like that. 52 00:05:44,520 --> 00:05:56,520 The usual explanations which must fit many of these sightings. I was tremendously impressed by the reproducibility almost which you imply here. 53 00:05:56,520 --> 00:06:11,520 One young lad went and sat out on the mountainside till he saw it again with his mother. Here would have been a chance for the Air Force or whoever was interested to move in and perhaps do something really scientific for change 54 00:06:11,520 --> 00:06:16,520 instead of studying it after the fact that we otherwise always have to do. 55 00:06:16,520 --> 00:06:26,520 Well by run of the mill I meant the disagreement between the two observers, the two police officers. One of them said a hundred feet and that seems to be the person that you have quoted. 56 00:06:26,520 --> 00:06:37,520 But the other one said 9,000 feet away and possibly two to three miles. And this is in exact of the same place in the official report. 57 00:06:37,520 --> 00:06:46,520 Well now back to the mills, could I say this? I tape recorded the two police men on the spot and it had them re-enact everything that went on. 58 00:06:46,520 --> 00:06:54,520 He did not say 9,000 feet. He said it was just immediately over the trees when the second policeman, the Colman David Hunt, arrived. 59 00:06:54,520 --> 00:06:59,520 Now in the official report from the Air Force, do you recall how they explained this? 60 00:06:59,520 --> 00:07:07,520 I explained what? How they explained the signing? The Air Force? What the official Air Force report was? 61 00:07:07,520 --> 00:07:19,520 This is very close to an Air Force base and I know that there was some operation in the neighborhood. Dr. Heineck I think would be, was investigated the case more closely than I would be able to. 62 00:07:19,520 --> 00:07:36,520 The Air Force reported as operations big blast, a high altitude exercise from West Overfield, Massachusetts, between the hours of 12 midnight and 2 a.m. on September 2, 1964. 63 00:07:36,520 --> 00:07:45,520 The signing took place on September 3, 1964 at 3 a.m. 65. 65. I'm sorry, I apologize on that. 64 00:07:45,520 --> 00:07:53,520 Now the Air Force, the two policemen, when they got this report from the Air Force, when it was released of local papers, were furious. 65 00:07:53,520 --> 00:08:04,520 They wrote three letters, two letters, to the major Clinton Miller of the Wright Patterson Air Defense Command Farm Technology Division. 66 00:08:04,520 --> 00:08:23,520 And they asked him to please immediately write and withdraw this report because it implied that they had no sensibilities, that they were incapable of discerning the difference between a plane or a planet or a high altitude exercise. 67 00:08:23,520 --> 00:08:35,520 Petronman Bertrand was in the Korean War for four years. He refueled from KC-97 tankers. He knew every plane, not only by sight but by sound. He knew helicopters. 68 00:08:35,520 --> 00:08:47,520 He attempted to place this object within the category of intentional, of conventional aircraft. He did everything he could to it. 69 00:08:47,520 --> 00:09:04,520 When David Hunt arrived about four to five minutes after Lieutenant Bertrand incidentally threw himself on the ground and began to pull his gun because the plane came so close to them, Lieutenant Bertrand did everything he could to rule out the possible things. 70 00:09:04,520 --> 00:09:14,520 The three of them, an 18-year-old boy, Petronman David Hunt, Petronman Eugene Bertrand, sat there for between eight and nine minutes and tried to rule everything out. 71 00:09:14,520 --> 00:09:29,520 Now the Pentagon went, after the second letter arrived from these policemen, the Pentagon, as of yesterday, finally wrote to Eugene Bertrand and David Hunt and apologized because they could not identify this object. 72 00:09:29,520 --> 00:09:31,520 Now I want to get these facts absolutely straight. 73 00:09:31,520 --> 00:09:42,520 Now, excuse me, let me get this straight. As of this letter, the position of the official agency having to do with it is that they do not have this one explained. 74 00:09:42,520 --> 00:09:53,520 They do not, but they first explained it. The first statement was that it was not the persistence of these two policemen which made them withdraw their first explanation. 75 00:09:53,520 --> 00:09:55,520 Mr. Hunt, would you tell me anything? 76 00:09:55,520 --> 00:10:07,520 Yes, I spent two days last week at Redfield on this case and one thing immediately ruled out, the big blast operation, that all the planes from that were down by 135. 77 00:10:07,520 --> 00:10:30,520 Yes, that was it. And this was due to some misunderstanding earlier. The Pentagon office had not the exact time on the writing and this was pointed out and I called Lieutenant Branch, who had been one of the men from PZ Air Force Base, to come down. 78 00:10:30,520 --> 00:10:41,520 And certainly from the manner in which they reported it, I don't see in this case at least how it could have been D-47. 79 00:10:41,520 --> 00:10:45,520 Well, they wrote that out. I mean, they saw D-47 in the barrack. 80 00:10:45,520 --> 00:10:58,520 It's rather interesting. I should say, Mr. Goldman, that I've been the Air Force investigator. That's incorrect. I've been consultant to the Air Force for the last 18 years on this subject. 81 00:10:58,520 --> 00:11:05,520 I am not here this evening speaking before the Air Force, but there's an astronomer out there who's lying about this. 82 00:11:06,520 --> 00:11:21,520 Well, during those 18 years of reports, one of the things that is interesting to me, I'm not sure whether it occurred in this case or not, but is the S, which I might call the escalation of interpretation, the better report. 83 00:11:21,520 --> 00:11:32,520 And generally, the man will try to explain it as something perfectly natural. For instance, in the Monticello case, I mean, the man who sees it and the man who sees it. 84 00:11:32,520 --> 00:11:40,520 There are four people there. The first product was Brincoite from a car in the road. They thought it had been from accident. 85 00:11:40,520 --> 00:11:48,520 There was explanation one. Explanation two was a little too high. Therefore, it's probably a plane coming into crash. 86 00:11:48,520 --> 00:11:55,520 In that particular case, the little girl in the back seat was so frightened that she just toppled over and covered her head. 87 00:11:55,520 --> 00:12:07,520 And then they stroked quite another interpretation. By the way, these were two graduate students in anthropology at the University of Wisconsin. 88 00:12:08,520 --> 00:12:20,520 Quite articulate. The plane was very similar actually to the exterd, exterd case, similar to the Toledo case, similar to the one they owned in Mexico case. 89 00:12:20,520 --> 00:12:29,520 In every case, we have a phenomenon that exists. I'll go that far, but I will not go to jump on that. 90 00:12:29,520 --> 00:12:34,520 A phenomenon exists to a tremendous jump that we're being visited from outer space. 91 00:12:34,520 --> 00:12:36,520 I wouldn't be here. 92 00:12:36,520 --> 00:12:45,520 I'd like to say that in one respect, I agree with Professor Minthal's point of view that this is a run-of-the-mill report. 93 00:12:45,520 --> 00:12:53,520 I wasn't at the scene, as I haven't had an opportunity to investigate personally, but I've read many, many reports. 94 00:12:53,520 --> 00:12:59,520 And I'd say it's run-of-the-mill in this sense that something is happening and people are reporting these things. 95 00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:14,520 And yes, the interpretation I place on what is run-of-the-mill might be quite different, because it seems to me that our summaries are citing which must be interpreted in various ways. 96 00:13:14,520 --> 00:13:17,520 There seem to be four tenable hypotheses. 97 00:13:17,520 --> 00:13:25,520 One, UFO reports are statements from persons who sense known phenomena and perceive them as unknown phenomena. 98 00:13:25,520 --> 00:13:33,520 Two, reports are statements by people who are attempting to defraud others by making false claims. 99 00:13:33,520 --> 00:13:46,520 Three, the reports are statements by persons who are perceiving unknown phenomena based upon internal psychic stimuli or from other persons, psychic projections. 100 00:13:46,520 --> 00:13:54,520 Four, they're sensing and perceiving unknown phenomena, which may be extraterrestrial phenomena. 101 00:13:54,520 --> 00:14:00,520 And it seems to me that although one and two hypotheses explain many reports, they do not explain all. 102 00:14:00,520 --> 00:14:11,520 And it seems to me that there's not sufficient evidence to reject any one of these hypotheses, particularly for a large number of group sightings, as opposed to looking individual sightings. 103 00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:22,520 And therefore, as a psychologist, it's of interest to me, regardless of what the explanations are, because something is happening. 104 00:14:22,520 --> 00:14:36,520 To me, it'd be a more fantastic world to have psychic projections make objects appear in the sky, but other see than it would be to have a world in which could be visited by another world. 105 00:14:36,520 --> 00:14:40,520 But whichever explanation is, I'm interested. 106 00:14:40,520 --> 00:14:43,520 Why haven't psychologists taken more of an interest in it? 107 00:14:43,520 --> 00:14:47,520 Why haven't psychologists studied pathology or hypnosis? They're afraid. 108 00:14:47,520 --> 00:14:48,520 Afraid of what? 109 00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:50,520 Why haven't astronomers made more of it? 110 00:14:50,520 --> 00:14:52,520 He said afraid. I'm curious about that. 111 00:14:52,520 --> 00:14:56,520 Psychologists base much of their work. 112 00:14:56,520 --> 00:14:59,520 This is my opinion. I don't speak for all psychologists on it. 113 00:14:59,520 --> 00:15:01,520 Obviously. 114 00:15:02,520 --> 00:15:07,520 I think that they attempt to base their work upon that, which has been true of biologists. 115 00:15:07,520 --> 00:15:12,520 And biologists, in my opinion, have based their approach on that done by physicists. 116 00:15:12,520 --> 00:15:26,520 And I think that this is one reason why there's an interesting description by Manning Frank, saying that what is right, what is good, what is moral, is perceived to be based on what we believe the world would be like. 117 00:15:26,520 --> 00:15:32,520 And we believe the world would be like what we see in the sky and the physical laws. 118 00:15:32,520 --> 00:15:49,520 It seems to me that the reason why psychologists have been so far unwilling to just investigate these things is because the present scientific knowledge says that there ain't no such thing as other intelligent beings. 119 00:15:49,520 --> 00:16:07,520 Well gentlemen, I've been, all of this question so far has been the implication on the part of some of you that the government, the official agency of the Air Force having to do with investigating these, is let us say reluctant to take them seriously. 120 00:16:07,520 --> 00:16:10,520 Even if they should be taken seriously. 121 00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:24,520 Now, I know this, Mr. Menzel, in your book The World of Flying Saucer, you maintain, let me quote you directly, if a spaceship came, no one would be more eager to acknowledge it than our government officials. 122 00:16:24,520 --> 00:16:34,520 We take the different point of view. All governments would feel it necessary to protect the human race if necessary and to establish diplomatic relations with the alien race if possible. 123 00:16:34,520 --> 00:16:38,520 I think you have said very much. Is it easy to tell me? 124 00:16:38,520 --> 00:16:56,520 I feel that either they don't know or they know, they don't know and they are afraid to admit that or that they do know a lot more than they've released and they are afraid of disruption if it is true. 125 00:16:56,520 --> 00:16:58,520 It's one of those two things that I don't know. 126 00:16:58,520 --> 00:17:13,520 I think the actual governmental point of view, and I can speak to it because I have never been an official consultant to the Air Force, but I can see the pattern as I have studied it through the last 15 years or so. 127 00:17:13,520 --> 00:17:25,520 The Air Force is not definitely concerned with flying saucers from outer space, but they are seriously concerned with any threat to our national security. 128 00:17:25,520 --> 00:17:32,520 And they're also interested in knowing what possible potential enemy powers may be doing. 129 00:17:32,520 --> 00:17:37,520 When they see something bright moving through the sky, they want to know what it is. 130 00:17:37,520 --> 00:17:51,520 And I know that whenever there is an area that is at least critical, I'm sure there must be a lot of flying saucers reported over South Vietnam at the present time. 131 00:17:51,520 --> 00:18:00,520 These things will be called flying saucers because we've been concentrating, I think, far too much on the accident case. 132 00:18:00,520 --> 00:18:02,520 This is just one case. 133 00:18:02,520 --> 00:18:03,520 Oh, I realize that. 134 00:18:03,520 --> 00:18:05,520 It's the latest to be written. 135 00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:16,520 The interesting thing about it was that I took a microcosm where a rather alarming and officially documented case was and went into it in depth. 136 00:18:16,520 --> 00:18:20,520 And this is not done too often. They've reported from all over. 137 00:18:20,520 --> 00:18:23,520 But I went up there expecting to find one case. 138 00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:31,520 I tracked down about eight leads in the police flatters and ended up with 60 people who were reliable people. 139 00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:32,520 They weren't nuts. 140 00:18:32,520 --> 00:18:33,520 I mean, I had a lot. 141 00:18:33,520 --> 00:18:34,520 This is one thing I have. 142 00:18:34,520 --> 00:18:37,520 I hate these nuts and crooks involved with this. 143 00:18:37,520 --> 00:18:40,520 These were average or better than average intelligence. 144 00:18:40,520 --> 00:18:44,520 They were reliable citizens of the area. 145 00:18:44,520 --> 00:18:49,520 They not only had seen them, but I concentrated them on low level. 146 00:18:49,520 --> 00:18:53,520 Below, treetop, level down to five or six feet off the ground. 147 00:18:53,520 --> 00:18:54,520 The reports. 148 00:18:54,520 --> 00:18:55,520 I'm a journalist. 149 00:18:55,520 --> 00:18:56,520 I'm not a... 150 00:18:56,520 --> 00:18:58,520 So this is the report there. 151 00:18:58,520 --> 00:19:04,520 And I have here 203 pages of transcriptions of cross-examination to these people. 152 00:19:04,520 --> 00:19:17,520 And I think if you read these cross-examinations, you would find that this many people, you couldn't possibly be either psychic or that inaccurate in the reports that they got. 153 00:19:17,520 --> 00:19:19,520 Now that's what I can report. 154 00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:29,520 I'd like to raise a question in regard to the same question that is concentrating not only on individual case, but also on patterns or groups of cases. 155 00:19:29,520 --> 00:19:45,520 I'm surprised, and I wondered if Professor Menza would be willing to comment on the fact that Michelle's book, The Straight Line Mystery, is not discussed in your book. 156 00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:53,520 And yet I believe that it was a 58 book, so there would have been time for you and Mrs. Boyd to have... 157 00:19:53,520 --> 00:19:56,520 What is your reaction to The Straight Line Mystery? 158 00:19:56,520 --> 00:20:00,520 I don't know that, but for the benefit of our audience, what is the book about? 159 00:20:00,520 --> 00:20:09,520 My interpretation would be that Michelle, a Frenchman engineer, has found a very interesting datum. 160 00:20:09,520 --> 00:20:22,520 Using many data, he has found a very interesting observation, that is that UFO sightings, as reported by a very personal in France, 161 00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:32,520 these reports, when the map is used to place pinnames corresponding to the places where the UFOs are sighted, 162 00:20:32,520 --> 00:20:37,520 these can be the points along which lines can be drawn. 163 00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:44,520 At first he wasn't sure whether these were mathematically straight lines or whether they were circles on the Earth, 164 00:20:44,520 --> 00:20:47,520 and so I called it more thought-in-the-ear or something like this. 165 00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:54,520 Now, apparently, he has concluded that these lines correspond to circles on the Earth, 166 00:20:54,520 --> 00:20:57,520 and I wondered what your reaction to this finding is. 167 00:20:57,520 --> 00:21:01,520 Well, I have looked into it carefully from the mathematical standpoint. 168 00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:03,520 I'm well aware of his book. 169 00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:07,520 I didn't consider it sufficiently important to go into it, 170 00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:10,520 and Mr. Boyd and I wrote a book on the world with line sources, 171 00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:14,520 but people criticized me for passing it by, 172 00:21:14,520 --> 00:21:20,520 so I did give a very thorough and scientific analysis to his contention. 173 00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:23,520 Now, let me state precisely what it is that he does. 174 00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:27,520 He takes all of the sightings that are reported in certain French newspapers, 175 00:21:27,520 --> 00:21:32,520 from the hour of midnight to the following day, 176 00:21:32,520 --> 00:21:38,520 and he plots the point where the observer was at the moment he saw the flying saucer. 177 00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:44,520 Not where this supposedly the flying saucer was, but where the observer was when he saw it. 178 00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:51,520 And then he had maybe 10, 15, 20, 30 sightings covering all of France. 179 00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:56,520 He discovers that, to his surprise, that he can draw straight lines, 180 00:21:56,520 --> 00:22:01,520 connecting three points, sometimes four, sometimes even more of these. 181 00:22:01,520 --> 00:22:09,520 Well, I found that you can take a dozen catnip seeds, 182 00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:14,520 throw them on the map of France, confine them with the same boundaries, 183 00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:18,520 and you can draw exactly the same set of straight lines. 184 00:22:18,520 --> 00:22:22,520 Did you also follow what he found in, concluded, 1962, 185 00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:26,520 and that is that many of these sightings conform to an earthly circle? 186 00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:38,520 That is, there is absolutely not enough data in his observations to justify that contention. 187 00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:42,520 When you say absolutely, does that mean then that you still regard this as a mystery, 188 00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:44,520 or you regard this as no mystery? 189 00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:52,520 No mystery, it's just one of those sort of hallucinations that I'm afraid. 190 00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:59,520 It's not very much, because, not only because of the way back a little, 191 00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:04,520 but also because I belong to a couple of organizations setting hypnosis and parapsychology. 192 00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:11,520 I wonder to what extent hallucinations and delusions can be used to explain these sightings, 193 00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:15,520 or to what extent they can be used to explain away these sightings? 194 00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:20,520 Well, are you still on the orthodox problem, or something else, because in the case of... 195 00:23:20,520 --> 00:23:23,520 Now, you used the term hallucination, I wonder what you were... 196 00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:29,520 Well, I mean, it's a self-illucination that you see all these straight lines, 197 00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:32,520 and you begin to believe that these straight lines must be real, 198 00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:35,520 but actually you can show that they're going entirely with chance. 199 00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:39,520 Well, he has one set of six points that are pretty impressive. 200 00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:44,520 I talked to him in 62 when he told me about this world, I know of a business, 201 00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:49,520 I know about it in 64, and he wasn't sure anymore. 202 00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:59,520 But it is an interesting phenomenon, because he tried to do one thing that would be valuable, I believe, 203 00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:04,520 and that is he tried to do something objective where you didn't have to believe the witness, 204 00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:06,520 you simply tried to see if there was some relation to it. 205 00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:07,520 Or just believe the witness. 206 00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:15,520 Well, I don't really disagree with your book, but I do agree with you in this case only because 207 00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:19,520 there hasn't been enough scientific study on the subject, 208 00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:26,520 and it seems to me that with such a massive amount of statistics, not only exodus, but everywhere else, 209 00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:38,520 that the professors of astronomy should be eager to set out with a good, solid program, 210 00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:42,520 and really disprove it. I don't care what you do, 211 00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:47,520 but to go out and prove you have to believe a proof or disprove. 212 00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:52,520 Well, this brings us back again to this question of the attitude of the official agency, 213 00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:55,520 which is responsible for saying to the public, 214 00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:59,520 let's take this seriously, or let's not take this seriously. 215 00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:03,520 Mr. Hattuck, I think you've had most experience with that particular phase of things. 216 00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:07,520 How would you describe the attitude of that agency? 217 00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:13,520 Well, the amount of work that they've been able to do on these things, first of all, 218 00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:17,520 the Air Force is not primarily a scientific organization. 219 00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:21,520 Their charge, as Dr. Manning pointed out, is dependent to the country. 220 00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:26,520 There are something like two reports per day, 221 00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:32,520 and if they were to be investigated in depth with the relatively small groups they have, 222 00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:34,520 it would just be impossible. 223 00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:39,520 May I understand, there are two reports of flying saucer, 224 00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:43,520 a large flying saucer, episodes, or two people reporting? 225 00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:45,520 No, two reports per day. 226 00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:47,520 Sometimes there are many people reporting and giving up. 227 00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:49,520 Two cases per day. 228 00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:54,520 And let me emphasize that UFOs, as far as I'm concerned, exist as reports. 229 00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:56,520 They are reports, and the question is, 230 00:25:56,520 --> 00:26:02,520 now, what is the stimulus that gives rise to that report? 231 00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:11,520 I would like to, in this remark, now, ask the question of hallucinations coming up. 232 00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:15,520 I think we were facing, in this manner, except 18 years ago, 233 00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:18,520 the face of the poverty of hypotheses. 234 00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:22,520 It's either considered complete bulk on one hand, 235 00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:26,520 or we're being visited by space people on the other. 236 00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:30,520 Surely, we should be in genes enough to think of other hypotheses. 237 00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:34,520 What is the status in psychology of mass hallucination? 238 00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:37,520 How many people can be mass hallucinated to see the same thing? 239 00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:41,520 This is a good question, and I don't believe that I'm an expert on this, 240 00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:45,520 and I don't believe there is about anyone else, as far as I know, from the literature. 241 00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:48,520 This is one reason why I've recently become interested in parapsychology, 242 00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:54,520 and also in hypnosis, wondering if the literature in these areas of knowledge 243 00:26:54,520 --> 00:27:00,520 might give some clues as to how so many people 244 00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:10,520 who apparently are emotionally upset can describe with great detail the same thing. 245 00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:17,520 It seems to me that there are only two good hypotheses in this respect, 246 00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:23,520 and that is, either there are many people who are good actors, who are involved in a conspiracy, 247 00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:28,520 or else there is some kind of psychic projection going on between one person, 248 00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:36,520 another person, another person, and then something appears based upon one person's illusion or hallucination, 249 00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:38,520 that others are able to participate in. 250 00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:41,520 And to me, this is a very interesting world, if it could be that way. 251 00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:45,520 I've not even heard, and this is, I think it was a part of the National Observer, 252 00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:50,520 but I'm not even sure of that, that any experiments with LSE drugs and so forth, 253 00:27:50,520 --> 00:28:01,520 that one person had a hallucination, and two people with whom this person was in close friendship, close contact, 254 00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:05,520 but geographically separated, had the same identical hallucination. 255 00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:07,520 You know anything I thought that had been documented? 256 00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:12,520 Not in terms of LSE, although I'm familiar with Bloomer's book, in his regard, 257 00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:21,520 but I'm familiar with some cases in which experimentally, persons are able to call out cards, 258 00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:25,520 which correspond with cards that are being turned over by other persons. 259 00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:28,520 But this is quite a bit of a story from the old picture, the old thing. 260 00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:33,520 One thing that I've been very much interested in, and the reports are interesting in themselves, 261 00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:38,520 if there is a phenomenon, but I'm really more interested in the way in the people who make the reports, 262 00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:43,520 there is a spectrum of reports and a spectrum of reporters, and sometimes, 263 00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:51,520 or I hope you will give me permission to read just a few quotes from letters from... 264 00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:55,520 Well, yeah, these are quite well written, because... 265 00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:59,520 Alright, I'll just say I'm just talking to have my own. 266 00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:06,520 I think the human side of this thing is sent to be missed occasionally, 267 00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:14,520 because the reporters, in general, I found quite sincere people who are honestly puzzled, 268 00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:23,520 and you'd be quite surprised if, if I could mention publicly, some of the rather prominent people who have... 269 00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:26,520 Just a little puzzling, we have a phenomenon, I just said before, 270 00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:31,520 I simply cannot get myself to believe it in the start of it, the idea that the documents are completely right. 271 00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:35,520 I just can't see the point for how we can be... 272 00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:39,520 Well, if there were patients who used to meet in RADAR, I would pick them up on our satellite. 273 00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:43,520 Well, we'll come back to that. 274 00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:50,520 I'll just say on the piece, I'll just say on the other end, I'll get back to that. 275 00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:52,520 Alright, here's one. 276 00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:55,520 During World War II, I was the pilot and the Air Force, and all my colleagues, 277 00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:59,520 and all that time, and every once in a night or day, I observed anything on human disguise. 278 00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:03,520 Now at the age of 43, I've observed phenomena which are beyond my comprehension, 279 00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:06,520 and which tracks my sense of reasoning and capability. 280 00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:11,520 I am postmaster here at Baker, I hesitated before repeating the subject in post-inspective, 281 00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:15,520 but after a great deal of serious thinking, I felt that I could not be a good American citizen 282 00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:17,520 if I did not ask these questions. 283 00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:21,520 What was the live object and where did it come from? 284 00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:25,520 Here's another man who was prompted to report a sighting after hearing of other sightings. 285 00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:32,520 He was very anxious to have his name withheld from the press and do it in his business position. 286 00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:34,520 Here's another one. 287 00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:37,520 This phenomenon was witnessed by four other persons who have substantiated this report. 288 00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:43,520 Believe me, this was no hallucination or mirage, it was real. 289 00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:45,520 Another one here. 290 00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:47,520 Gentlemen, are you afraid to answer this letter? 291 00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:49,520 You're willing to divulge what it was? 292 00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:51,520 No, I do not think it was hostile arms. 293 00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:53,520 It left no vapor trail. What move did I do not know? 294 00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:57,520 If you do not know what this was, the biotech is not telling you how it was. 295 00:30:57,520 --> 00:31:01,520 Gentlemen, I challenge you to answer this letter practically, but I never expected help from you. 296 00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:03,520 This is the world's most effective air force. 297 00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:05,520 Is it air-powered? 298 00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:07,520 That's not my department. 299 00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:09,520 Here's another one. 300 00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:11,520 This is the US Air Force Chief of Staff. 301 00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:13,520 No one in authority will listen to my description of them. 302 00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:17,520 I have been told they do not exist, but they were optical illusions. 303 00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:19,520 Well, I know better, I saw them, they do exist. 304 00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:23,520 If there was just a telephone number we could call when these things are cited. 305 00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:27,520 Then stations in the direction they are going could be alerted. 306 00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:31,520 This is what I was going to do with. 307 00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:37,520 These people are always, you say, responsible people, or reasonably responsible. 308 00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:43,520 Those that I have talked to personally on the phone or have visited, I have found remarkably articulate. 309 00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:46,520 And I have screwed down their relations. 310 00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:50,520 I have been told that they are not leading to your further puzzlement. 311 00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:58,520 You agree with Mr. Menzel here that from the physical point of view, you simply cannot accept these right-hand returns. 312 00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:02,520 As well as have not been obligated. 313 00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:06,520 And you bring up the question now, which I do wish we could move to now. 314 00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:08,520 Mr. Solberg, would you move us to that? 315 00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:12,520 In the physical area, they are radio-optic, and so forth. 316 00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:16,520 I do not know exactly what I had in mind, but it is closely related. 317 00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:18,520 I got into this in a different way. 318 00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:24,520 I am a biologist, but I took a course in geochemistry at Caltech from Harrison Brown, 319 00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:28,520 and had to write a paper about life on Mars in 1962. 320 00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:32,520 I have been interested in this subject ever since. 321 00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:36,520 There have not been very many biologists who have wondered about the markings on Mars 322 00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:40,520 and what they might mean and the possibilities that there could be life there and so on. 323 00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:42,520 I am just not sure if I am doing this. 324 00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:44,520 It is completely speculation. 325 00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:48,520 The only real conclusion that I have is that we have no conclusions 326 00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:50,520 and that we have to wait until we land something there 327 00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:54,520 or get some much better pictures or something before we can really decide. 328 00:32:54,520 --> 00:33:00,520 Although it is possible to argue in favor of life on Mars, 329 00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:04,520 some sort of vegetable life that accounts for the markings, their change in color and so on. 330 00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:08,520 We are doing experiments now that show us that plant life, 331 00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:12,520 even as we know it here on the Earth, is much more hard than we had ever imagined 332 00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:18,520 and can stand extremely severe conditions that previously we just assumed would be fatal. 333 00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:22,520 Well, I got to this point and it was lots of fun. 334 00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:24,520 And then it turns out that there are some other observations, 335 00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:29,520 the canals of Mars that have been discussed since 1877. 336 00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:31,520 What do they mean? 337 00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:33,520 Are they real? 338 00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:35,520 Are they earthquake cracks? 339 00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:36,520 Or what are they? 340 00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:38,520 They are just intelligence. 341 00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:42,520 There is possibility that they could be a sign that there is intelligence on Mars. 342 00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:47,520 And this is the most, the best known aspect of the whole picture. 343 00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:52,520 But we have also seen flares on Mars that are very puzzling and difficult, 344 00:33:52,520 --> 00:33:54,520 very much like the flying saucers in a way, 345 00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:58,520 because they don't fit into our picture of the physical universe. 346 00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:02,520 They are too bright and too short to be volcanoes 347 00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:05,520 and long in duration to be meteorite impacts, 348 00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:10,520 too frequent to be meteorite impacts, I suppose, of that magnitude. 349 00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:13,520 What are they? We have any idea. 350 00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:16,520 The satellites of Mars are extremely interesting. 351 00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:21,520 They are different from the other satellites in the solar system that we've known. 352 00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:24,520 They are smaller, they have circular orbits and the plane of the Mars is a little bit bigger. 353 00:34:24,520 --> 00:34:31,520 But speaking as a physiologist, you feel that there are a lot of things in this unexplained category 354 00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:33,520 that are similar to the... 355 00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:35,520 Well, let me finish. 356 00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:42,520 At the point of it is, I believe Dr. Menzel and what Dr. Heineck has just expressed, 357 00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:49,520 to them the idea of intelligence on some other planet close enough to visit us 358 00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:54,520 seems very unlikely in terms of the picture that they've developed. 359 00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:59,520 But I had developed a different picture, namely that there could be intelligence on Mars, 360 00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:05,520 realizing fully that when we get there these phenomena might have some other explanation. 361 00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:11,520 But now the conclusion that's usually stated against intelligence on Mars is 362 00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:17,520 if they launch those satellites, which are huge in terms of artificial objects, 363 00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:22,520 if they built that canal system, they ought to be able to visit us. 364 00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:24,520 And if they could, they would. 365 00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:29,520 Obviously they would want to land on the White House lawn and say, take me to your leader. 366 00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:34,520 Well, the argument is, since they haven't, therefore they don't exist. 367 00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:37,520 And I'm not sure this is a valid argument. 368 00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:43,520 If they were intelligent, I suppose they could have the reasons for not wanting to contact us directly. 369 00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:48,520 Maybe they're waiting for a Republican administration or something like that. 370 00:35:48,520 --> 00:35:52,520 They could have some sort of reason for not wanting to make this formal contact. 371 00:35:52,520 --> 00:35:56,520 And I asked myself the question at this stage in 1962, 372 00:35:56,520 --> 00:36:00,520 is there any evidence that they might be observing us? 373 00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:02,520 And that's what got me into this story. 374 00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:07,520 But I just want to explain it as possible to get into this story from a different standpoint, 375 00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:16,520 where it does seem reasonable, if you're willing to speculate, and not take it too seriously, 376 00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:22,520 consider the idea that we could be this at the broader space. 377 00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:25,520 To me, this is not so unlikely as you imply. 378 00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:29,520 Well, moving to the next stage in this then, 379 00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:34,520 we talked about some of the human aspects of this, 380 00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:39,520 and the related studies which can lead not to explanation, 381 00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:42,520 but to the feeling that there are a lot of unexplained things. 382 00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:46,520 We haven't discussed this sheer physical end of the thing. 383 00:36:46,520 --> 00:36:52,520 I'm just going to add that you feel strongly that there are some physical mysteries about this. 384 00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:59,520 All right. And as a reporter now, and I'm way out of below these fellows' clats in the science end, 385 00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:04,520 but as a reporter, and I think a reporter has a valid position here, 386 00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:08,520 I feel that there are definite physical manifestations, 387 00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:14,520 which I don't think Dr. Menzel's book, I think you give them sort of short shift, 388 00:37:14,520 --> 00:37:17,520 a shift if I may say so right now. 389 00:37:17,520 --> 00:37:23,520 First, there are pictures which have been taken, and you can hallucinate a camera. 390 00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:26,520 Second, there are many radar reports. 391 00:37:26,520 --> 00:37:33,520 Third, there are the effect of animal behavior is constantly repetitious. 392 00:37:33,520 --> 00:37:39,520 Dogs cowering and howling and going in the corner of horses and cattle kicking up 393 00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:44,520 and consistently reported. 394 00:37:44,520 --> 00:37:51,520 So, next, the electrical disturbances like ignitions of cars, radios, 395 00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:56,520 and television interference and lights going out. 396 00:37:56,520 --> 00:38:08,520 Now, again, I am not a UFO expert, but I must say that I've done more research in one particular case 397 00:38:08,520 --> 00:38:11,520 than I've heard any astronomer doing. 398 00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:17,520 And also, I want to open to say that these objects, especially in the Exeter area 399 00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:22,520 where I only had the opportunity of exploring, the reports were a low level. 400 00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:25,520 I don't think they didn't have much to do with astronomy. 401 00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:30,520 I mean, a hundred feet or below the tree top level is an endless program of this area. 402 00:38:30,520 --> 00:38:34,520 Mr. Menzel, would you comment on this shift, physical aspect of these objects? 403 00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:38,520 Yes, I'd like to comment on a number of things that Mr. Fuller has said. 404 00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:42,520 Where does all his statement you can't hallucinate a camera? 405 00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:49,520 I think that's probably true, but a man who is behind the camera can certainly produce a lot of things 406 00:38:49,520 --> 00:38:51,520 and there is quite possible. 407 00:38:51,520 --> 00:38:56,520 You've got all kinds of internal reflections in the camera, or the shutter can stick, 408 00:38:56,520 --> 00:38:58,520 or you can get double exposures. 409 00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:06,520 And this picture that you, I think, about, I'll show you, not the film, it happens to be, I think, a double exposure 410 00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:08,520 and there's a source of that. 411 00:39:08,520 --> 00:39:10,520 But did you check, were you out there? Did you speak to James Litchie? 412 00:39:10,520 --> 00:39:11,520 No, I did not. 413 00:39:11,520 --> 00:39:12,520 Did you speak to his brother? 414 00:39:12,520 --> 00:39:13,520 I just got it. 415 00:39:13,520 --> 00:39:18,520 His neighbors, the police, the school principal, the newspaper reporters, 416 00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:22,520 in the area, did you spend two days out there checking them? 417 00:39:22,520 --> 00:39:25,520 Did you check the area? Did you make a circle around the area? 418 00:39:25,520 --> 00:39:30,520 And close to over 40 people asking, did they see the light? 419 00:39:30,520 --> 00:39:33,520 And did you get identical pictures of people? 420 00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:39,520 I just want to know, because I have seen some of the most important things in this kind of thing. 421 00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:44,520 I don't think you, I was there doing your job. That's what I'm saying. 422 00:39:44,520 --> 00:39:45,520 That's all. 423 00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:47,520 This is not my job, pardon the wall. 424 00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:49,520 My picture was just a minute from now. 425 00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:50,520 I think this is a picture. 426 00:39:50,520 --> 00:39:51,520 Yes. 427 00:39:51,520 --> 00:39:53,520 You don't get a good amount of information about that. 428 00:39:53,520 --> 00:39:54,520 No. 429 00:39:54,520 --> 00:39:55,520 No, no, no point. 430 00:39:55,520 --> 00:39:56,520 Oh, he says yes. 431 00:39:56,520 --> 00:39:57,520 Well, he's a good guy. 432 00:39:57,520 --> 00:39:59,520 That picture had nothing to do with the story. 433 00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:04,520 No, but I took it as a control point in the effort of the patient and went out there and checked. 434 00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:07,520 Spent two full days out there. 435 00:40:07,520 --> 00:40:10,520 Now, let's get into the words where I cut the gentleman up. 436 00:40:10,520 --> 00:40:16,520 There's not only running beneath this discussion, the feeling that the government is in doing what it should be doing, 437 00:40:16,520 --> 00:40:19,520 but not really being trained or something like that. 438 00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:24,520 But there is this constant feeling that came up openly, you know, as a matter of fact, 439 00:40:24,520 --> 00:40:28,520 but the astronomers ought to get in there and study this thing more carefully. 440 00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:30,520 Is that what it boils down to? 441 00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:32,520 It still happens to be a mystery. 442 00:40:32,520 --> 00:40:36,520 Hi, Nick, and I probably, about the only astronomer who's devoted any time to it, 443 00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:42,520 and I think probably we both have devoted too much time to it from the astronomical standpoint 444 00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:45,520 because I think it has very little to do with astronomy. 445 00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:53,520 There's a lot to do with physiological optics, meteorological optics, and probably also psychology. 446 00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:59,520 But you keep talking about this distance of 100 feet. 447 00:40:59,520 --> 00:41:06,520 This, to me, does not sound at all well established. 448 00:41:06,520 --> 00:41:07,520 And that's the limit of feet. 449 00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:09,520 Or even less than 100 feet. 450 00:41:09,520 --> 00:41:13,520 This is only a conclusion of the observer. 451 00:41:13,520 --> 00:41:21,520 And at that distance, looking up, I've seen observers, many well-trained observers who are not hysterical to start with, 452 00:41:21,520 --> 00:41:26,520 as apparently these two observers were, who I think you should... 453 00:41:26,520 --> 00:41:28,520 I don't think he should say that. 454 00:41:28,520 --> 00:41:32,520 You're making an absolute, unfounded, unsubstantiated statement. 455 00:41:32,520 --> 00:41:34,520 He said he had to finish them. 456 00:41:34,520 --> 00:41:40,520 The defense of the two policemen and the three other people who saw that, I think that's an indefensible statement to make. 457 00:41:40,520 --> 00:41:43,520 When I say nothing to them, I say that, will you please let me finish? 458 00:41:43,520 --> 00:41:44,520 Yes. 459 00:41:44,520 --> 00:41:45,520 I'd like to finish. 460 00:41:45,520 --> 00:41:52,520 I'd say that it is impossible for anyone, you, or the most qualified observer, to estimate distances looking straight up. 461 00:41:52,520 --> 00:41:56,520 Beyond 100 at the order of 100 feet. 462 00:41:56,520 --> 00:42:01,520 Now, one observer says that it was 100 feet and the other said 9,000 feet. 463 00:42:01,520 --> 00:42:02,520 Sir, you did not check that. 464 00:42:02,520 --> 00:42:03,520 I did. 465 00:42:03,520 --> 00:42:04,520 He did not say 9,000 feet. 466 00:42:04,520 --> 00:42:10,520 And the other, in front of the trees, the other came up from behind the trees and came over the fields and left the front of the background, 467 00:42:10,520 --> 00:42:12,520 which would establish its distance. 468 00:42:12,520 --> 00:42:17,520 This guy, he was behind it first and then moved, and he's almost finished the loop. 469 00:42:17,520 --> 00:42:22,520 I must support Dr. Menton that because in the reports that he would make to the Air Force, that means one of them, 470 00:42:22,520 --> 00:42:27,520 Hunt said 100 feet or, I think, 100 feet. 471 00:42:27,520 --> 00:42:30,520 No one said 9,000 feet. 472 00:42:30,520 --> 00:42:31,520 He only did reports. 473 00:42:31,520 --> 00:42:32,520 I never wrote it. 474 00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:38,520 You say when you interview them, and I want them to know when they want to prove this, and I want minimal proof twice. 475 00:42:38,520 --> 00:42:44,520 And I checked the court every word they said, and I watched the reactionist to check the hopes. 476 00:42:44,520 --> 00:42:45,520 I checked their character. 477 00:42:45,520 --> 00:42:46,520 I checked their numbers. 478 00:42:46,520 --> 00:42:47,520 I checked. 479 00:42:47,520 --> 00:42:51,520 You see, I consider myself a responsible reporter. 480 00:42:51,520 --> 00:42:55,520 I'm sticking my neck out to get involved and write about UFOs. 481 00:42:55,520 --> 00:43:00,520 I'm sticking my neck out to write a story like this in a big circulation magazine or other Saturday review. 482 00:43:00,520 --> 00:43:02,520 These are responsible publications. 483 00:43:02,520 --> 00:43:09,520 When I got halfway through this research, I came down and asked them to send a look senior editor up to recheck my interviews, 484 00:43:10,520 --> 00:43:20,520 to spot check them, because I wanted confirmation by another experience before they sent the Gary and Zimmerman up from Look who came up, 485 00:43:20,520 --> 00:43:25,520 and he went right around in my tracks to double check what I said. 486 00:43:25,520 --> 00:43:30,520 Publications like this in the Saturday review, like looking at the Saturday review, don't do this sort of thing. 487 00:43:30,520 --> 00:43:31,520 We don't stick our neck out to this. 488 00:43:31,520 --> 00:43:32,520 This is a question. 489 00:43:32,520 --> 00:43:33,520 I hear a fact. 490 00:43:33,520 --> 00:43:39,520 Well, for you, you referred to these two men who are key to your story as hysterical, and he had texted that. 491 00:43:39,520 --> 00:43:40,520 What were you doing? 492 00:43:40,520 --> 00:43:43,520 Why did you refer to them as hysterical? 493 00:43:43,520 --> 00:43:50,520 It was certainly clear from the whole picture that the man was frightened and deaf, and he became hysterical. 494 00:43:50,520 --> 00:43:59,520 Everybody I talked to there, gentlemen, is obviously completely clashed in interpreting what these men were like. 495 00:43:59,520 --> 00:44:02,520 I refuse to be subject to an inquisition here. 496 00:44:02,520 --> 00:44:09,520 I'd like to speak to this question about hallucination and hysteria. 497 00:44:09,520 --> 00:44:18,520 So what it seems to me that depending upon one's definition of what these conditions are like, 498 00:44:18,520 --> 00:44:24,520 that it is just as unscientific to postulate these conditions without examination, 499 00:44:24,520 --> 00:44:32,520 as it is unscientific for me to say because I've seen two phenomena that I couldn't understand, 500 00:44:32,520 --> 00:44:34,520 that this right away is something. 501 00:44:34,520 --> 00:44:40,520 Twice, in the presence of some other person, I've seen something I couldn't identify. 502 00:44:40,520 --> 00:44:46,520 And one was very interesting, too, because in the summer of 56, my wife and I were training from Denver, 503 00:44:46,520 --> 00:44:51,520 came over here, saw what we thought was Venus, bright in the western sky. 504 00:44:51,520 --> 00:44:56,520 We had marveled at its brightness, and then suddenly it started to blue. 505 00:44:56,520 --> 00:45:03,520 And that was unusual in our experience, and so we stopped the car and got out. 506 00:45:03,520 --> 00:45:07,520 And as we did, we talked to Hill overlooking Boulder, Colorado, 507 00:45:07,520 --> 00:45:13,520 and either the light had dropped or else as we talked to Hill, 508 00:45:13,520 --> 00:45:18,520 we could see that the light was between us and the flower, and so I assumed it wasn't Venus. 509 00:45:18,520 --> 00:45:23,520 Although I'm not an astronomers, I don't know where the light is going to drop down over Boulder, Colorado. 510 00:45:23,520 --> 00:45:31,520 And there was light enough early first, I saw it, but I couldn't distinguish balloon or helicopter, 511 00:45:31,520 --> 00:45:38,520 I think in the hovering and the movement suggested that it wasn't responding to wind, 512 00:45:38,520 --> 00:45:40,520 the rest of the wind was very variable, and so on. 513 00:45:40,520 --> 00:45:47,520 Now there are many possibilities, and I recognize that I'm not qualified in terms of the meteorological or astronomical form, 514 00:45:47,520 --> 00:45:53,520 to suggest what it is or what it is not, but nevertheless it suggests to me that there is a mystery. 515 00:45:53,520 --> 00:46:01,520 This matter of mystery is so great, can I turn to you one, the implication so much of this literature is 516 00:46:01,520 --> 00:46:07,520 that if people really wanted to find out whether there is anything to this or not, 517 00:46:07,520 --> 00:46:11,520 there could be a range, let's say, a team of scientists. 518 00:46:11,520 --> 00:46:14,520 I'm not a good person, I'm not a good person. 519 00:46:14,520 --> 00:46:16,520 I'm not a good person. 520 00:46:16,520 --> 00:46:18,520 I'm not a good person. 521 00:46:18,520 --> 00:46:20,520 I'm not a good person. 522 00:46:20,520 --> 00:46:22,520 I'm not a good person. 523 00:46:22,520 --> 00:46:24,520 I'm not a good person. 524 00:46:24,520 --> 00:46:26,520 I'm not a good person. 525 00:46:26,520 --> 00:46:28,520 I'm not a good person. 526 00:46:28,520 --> 00:46:30,520 I'm not a good person. 527 00:46:30,520 --> 00:46:32,520 I'm not a good person. 528 00:46:32,520 --> 00:46:34,520 I'm not a good person. 529 00:46:34,520 --> 00:46:36,520 I'm not a good person. 530 00:46:36,520 --> 00:46:38,520 I'm not a good person. 531 00:46:38,520 --> 00:46:40,520 There hasn't been any reproducibility. 532 00:46:40,520 --> 00:46:44,520 You get an account here and then several months later somewhere else. 533 00:46:44,520 --> 00:46:49,520 But in this particular case, maybe if we'd have gone up there and sat around and watched, 534 00:46:49,520 --> 00:46:53,520 like a few of the people did, we could have done something sensible in the way of 535 00:46:53,520 --> 00:46:59,520 all we could get cameras with very large apertures and sensitive film and sit there and wait, 536 00:46:59,520 --> 00:47:04,520 try and expose them properly so they're not blurs, and see if we get a picture of what's seen and so on. 537 00:47:04,520 --> 00:47:08,520 The scientific court has a chance to do something of this sort. 538 00:47:08,520 --> 00:47:10,520 I suppose the chance might arise again. 539 00:47:10,520 --> 00:47:12,520 There were reports that were only on that left. 540 00:47:12,520 --> 00:47:14,520 The reports were still continuing on that left. 541 00:47:14,520 --> 00:47:17,520 Mr. Mangel, would you agree with us from a scientific court of view, one foot? 542 00:47:17,520 --> 00:47:25,520 I agree that we certainly could do a lot more toward scientific investigation of the phenomena of flying saucers than we have. 543 00:47:25,520 --> 00:47:32,520 But I would certainly like to come back to this question of the hallucinations and cameras. 544 00:47:32,520 --> 00:47:41,520 Because there have been many, many hopes and there have been many unintentional hopes because of internal reflections in cameras. 545 00:47:41,520 --> 00:47:51,520 And it's very questionable just to believe what you see on a camera film just because the camera has recorded it. 546 00:47:51,520 --> 00:47:54,520 The only good ones have a good story to go with it, I think. 547 00:47:54,520 --> 00:47:56,520 Well, I think that probably... 548 00:47:56,520 --> 00:47:58,520 Picture by itself surely has no value. 549 00:47:58,520 --> 00:48:01,520 I've got some of my weekdays to spend all last week faking. 550 00:48:01,520 --> 00:48:06,520 Most of the hopes that we have of the right field have been accompanied by photographs. 551 00:48:06,520 --> 00:48:07,520 Oh, yes. 552 00:48:07,520 --> 00:48:09,520 No, I don't have a photograph at all. 553 00:48:09,520 --> 00:48:14,520 You know, you mentioned so much time out there trying to check it out. 554 00:48:14,520 --> 00:48:22,520 A moment ago you took Dr. Menzel to task, or the astronomers in general, for not fulfilling their duty in studying these. 555 00:48:22,520 --> 00:48:28,520 And I must side here with Dr. Menzel and say that science doesn't work this way. 556 00:48:28,520 --> 00:48:30,520 Scientists do what they want. 557 00:48:30,520 --> 00:48:33,520 If they were really interested, they'd do it. 558 00:48:33,520 --> 00:48:37,520 If they were interested and motivated, why they'd be studying it. 559 00:48:37,520 --> 00:48:39,520 I think the thing to do is to get them interested. 560 00:48:39,520 --> 00:48:42,520 Well, now on this matter of should they take it seriously, 561 00:48:42,520 --> 00:48:48,520 now could I bring up this association so that our audience will have the estimate, you gentlemen, 562 00:48:48,520 --> 00:48:53,520 there's an association called the Aerial Phenomenon Research Organization, 563 00:48:53,520 --> 00:48:59,520 of which Ms. Carol Lorenzen is the director. 564 00:48:59,520 --> 00:49:03,520 I read some of the book and this lady is very worried. 565 00:49:03,520 --> 00:49:09,520 She says, is the author's serious contention that mankind is on the brink of space-borne catastrophe. 566 00:49:09,520 --> 00:49:17,520 The evidence in hand is of such magnitude and portents that she cannot with conscience ignore or withhold it. 567 00:49:17,520 --> 00:49:25,520 What kind of an organization is this? Is this some form of hysteria? Is this what it is? 568 00:49:25,520 --> 00:49:28,520 I'm part of it because I belong to the organization. 569 00:49:28,520 --> 00:49:33,520 And I myself have been interested in this. 570 00:49:33,520 --> 00:49:39,520 From my acquaintance, which is brief, of Mr. and Mrs. Lorenzen, 571 00:49:39,520 --> 00:49:43,520 I'm very impressed not only with their sincerity, but also with their work. 572 00:49:43,520 --> 00:49:49,520 And also I might say this, we've been talking about scientific investigation. 573 00:49:49,520 --> 00:49:58,520 I believe also, as with the book, Jacques Lallet has suggested various kinds of investigators might be a part of a team. 574 00:49:58,520 --> 00:50:00,520 And I think that's very good. 575 00:50:00,520 --> 00:50:04,520 But I also believe that it requires a cooperation of many people. 576 00:50:04,520 --> 00:50:16,520 And since I think that the law of public is aware of the information and is regarded as part of a cooperative venture, 577 00:50:16,520 --> 00:50:18,520 but this is all to the good. 578 00:50:18,520 --> 00:50:24,520 I recently completed a study concerning people who are interested in UFO reports 579 00:50:24,520 --> 00:50:32,520 and finding that for this particular sample, the average years of education in this group, 14 years, 580 00:50:33,520 --> 00:50:39,520 although they score differently on dogmatism than psychologists and guidance workers, 581 00:50:39,520 --> 00:50:42,520 they're still within what might be called the average range. 582 00:50:42,520 --> 00:50:46,520 They are in the middle, upper middle and lower middle classes. 583 00:50:46,520 --> 00:50:52,520 These people, at least as far as group characteristics are concerned, 584 00:50:52,520 --> 00:50:58,520 represent to me the kind of people that we want in many endeavors. 585 00:50:58,520 --> 00:51:06,520 And it seems to me that they ought to be included, these kinds of people ought to be included in any kind of scientific investigation. 586 00:51:06,520 --> 00:51:14,520 Mr. Heidegger, would you agree with his general estimate of Mr. Spriggole's general estimate of the aerial phenomena research organization? 587 00:51:14,520 --> 00:51:16,520 I'm not sure. 588 00:51:16,520 --> 00:51:18,520 What little I know of it. 589 00:51:18,520 --> 00:51:29,520 Well, I suppose any organization has a wide spectrum of people in it, but I think I would agree. 590 00:51:29,520 --> 00:51:35,520 I'm very glad to brought up this whole point of scientists paying more attention to it, 591 00:51:35,520 --> 00:51:40,520 because you asked several times, why don't astronomers and scientists pay more attention? 592 00:51:40,520 --> 00:51:47,520 Even though UFO is only a three letter word, it is a dirty word as far as scientists are concerned. 593 00:51:47,520 --> 00:51:58,520 And in general, serious scientists have not been aware or cared to become aware of the UFO phenomenon, which you might call it, 594 00:51:58,520 --> 00:52:02,520 because it's always been the subject of ridicule, banter and rotary. 595 00:52:02,520 --> 00:52:05,520 I was good for a laugh for a snicker. 596 00:52:05,520 --> 00:52:14,520 And the reason of course there's been the subject of ridicule and banter and so forth is that the professed to be core scientists that paid no attention to phenomena 597 00:52:14,520 --> 00:52:18,520 and the fact that they paid no attention to phenomena because of the analogies of ridicule and the vicious circle. 598 00:52:18,520 --> 00:52:21,520 Well, because the Air Force had nothing to do with it being an objective ridicule. 599 00:52:21,520 --> 00:52:23,520 That's what worries me. 600 00:52:23,520 --> 00:52:27,520 Don't we ignore it because we think, well, they're taking care of it. 601 00:52:27,520 --> 00:52:29,520 And they say that there's nothing to it, so that's sad. 602 00:52:29,520 --> 00:52:41,520 I think I can use that one by saying that as a consultant of the Air Force, I have now strongly recommended to the Air Force directly 603 00:52:41,520 --> 00:52:47,520 that a panel of scientists be set up, not only astronomers and physicists, but psychologists and various, 604 00:52:47,520 --> 00:52:52,520 to study the total UFO phenomenon, not whether we're being visited or not, 605 00:52:52,520 --> 00:52:57,520 but the first step there is that people have got to do some homework. 606 00:52:57,520 --> 00:53:02,520 I've looked at these things for 18 years, over 10,000 reports, and I'm still puzzled. 607 00:53:02,520 --> 00:53:08,520 We talk about the one-minute signal we're about to go up the air. 608 00:53:08,520 --> 00:53:13,520 Is this something that you would go along with as a scientist would suggest to Mr. Menzel? 609 00:53:13,520 --> 00:53:23,520 There's one point that I'd like to make in conclusion, and this is that there are hundreds and probably thousands of different kinds of flying saucers 610 00:53:23,520 --> 00:53:33,520 and they have natural explanations in terms of natural phenomena, in terms of reflections from material objects. 611 00:53:33,520 --> 00:53:36,520 You don't think the scientific loop is necessary? 612 00:53:36,520 --> 00:53:50,520 Well, I think that it could help in the elucidation of some of the more erudite varieties, many of which I've investigated myself. 613 00:53:50,520 --> 00:53:54,520 I'm sorry, gentlemen, I do have to take this off the air. Thank you very much. 614 00:53:54,520 --> 00:53:59,520 Mr. Sprinkle, Mr. Fuller, Mr. Menzel, Mr. Salisbury, and Mr. Honey. 615 00:53:59,520 --> 00:54:02,520 Thank you for being with us, ladies and gentlemen, and goodbye for this week. 616 00:54:02,520 --> 00:54:08,520 WNBC-TV has presented the Open Mind, moderated by Eric F. Goldman, 617 00:54:08,520 --> 00:54:11,520 Professor of History at Princeton University. 618 00:54:11,520 --> 00:54:17,520 Today's distinguished panel has been discussing our flying saucers-only science fiction. 619 00:54:17,520 --> 00:54:24,520 This has been a WNBC-TV Public Affairs presentation. This program was pre-recorded.